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Science

Top Researchers Are Calling For a Broader Investigation Into the Origin of Covid-19 (sciencemag.org) 208

In a letter in the journal Science, 18 prominent biologists -- including the world's foremost coronavirus researcher -- are lending their weight to calls for a new investigation of all possible origins of the virus, and calling on China's laboratories and agencies to "open their records" to independent analysis.

UPDATE:The New York Times points out that at least one of the signers, an epidemiologist and evolutionary biologist at the University of Chicago, told them explicitly that "I think it is more likely than not that SARS-CoV-2 emerged from an animal reservoir rather than a lab." And the Times notes that "Unlike other recent statements, the new letter did not come down in favor of one scenario or another."

But Kristian Andersen, a virologist at the Scripps Research Institute, still points out to the Times that "the letter suggests a false equivalence between the lab escape and natural origin scenarios. To this day, no credible evidence has been presented to support the lab leak hypothesis, which remains grounded in speculation."
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Top Researchers Are Calling For a Broader Investigation Into the Origin of Covid-19

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  • Under Biden, people are not afraid of getting canceled for demanding the truth (whatever it may be). Thank god Trump is gone so people can speak their minds without being called a "Trumper" and getting cancled.
    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by alvinrod ( 889928 )
      For a while I was grateful for Trump because I could go back to calling the president a retarded chimp again without people immediately trying to jump on me for being a racist.
    • It is TRUE but NOT Funny.

  • by caladine ( 1290184 ) on Friday May 14, 2021 @04:53PM (#61385424)

    Calling on China's laboratories and agencies to "open their records" to independent analysis

    Would be great, but...

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by djinn6 ( 1868030 )

      From China's perspective, they already allowed WHO to perform an investigation. Some people are unhappy with the results and wants another. How many investigations should they help with? Should it keep going until one of those investigations finds them at fault? And more importantly, no matter what data they provide, those who want to blame it on China will simply claim China doctored the data.

      If there's no way for China to make everyone happy no matter what they do, why would they comply?

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by lordjuice ( 6410788 )
        Maybe not force the investigators to wait a year to look things over? Or hey, here is a thought do not scrub down the facility and block all attempts at reviewing the data that the EcoHealth folks help fund? Conflict of interest much?
        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          If you had a potential biological outbreak on your hands wouldn't you scrub down the facility?

          The real issue here is that you want people from outside China to do the investigation, because you don't trust the Chinese to do it. Of course the Chinese are not going to accept your suspicion as a reason to do that. I have a feeling that most countries wouldn't accept foreign inspections of their facilities during the height of the pandemic or ever, given that they will all claim to be more than capable of regul

      • by caladine ( 1290184 ) on Friday May 14, 2021 @05:27PM (#61385550)

        This is absolutely no-win for the Chinese government, and I'll happily agree with you on that. The problem is that the initial WHO investigation was flawed and much of the data provided was summaries, rather than the raw data. The Chinese government had vetoes on who the WHO could send as investigators and effectively had right-of-first-refusal for the produced report. Not exactly things that inspire confidence in the report itself. I expect that if the shoe had been on a different foot, and the outbreaks had first started in the US or EU near some virology laboratory, investigators would also not have had unrestricted access to the data there either.

        My complaint is more that we'll never be entirely certain where this came from, even though the story in the report seems entirely plausible.

        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          The WHO are not the World Health Police. Their role is to assist, not to go and investigate countries looking for cover-ups. Their report was only created to collect the data that the Chinese supplied and make observations.

          If you want an investigation... Well given that China is a sovereign nation your only real option is probably the CIA or some other clandestine agency, and anything they produce will likely be classified up the wazoo and locked away for 50 years.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by msauve ( 701917 )
        > How many investigations should they help with?

        They only need to help with one. Your question should be "How many more investigations will they hinder?"
        • by djinn6 ( 1868030 )

          Do you need the Chinese government to provide you with hospital data? Do you need the Chinese government to force the people involved to talk to you? Do you need to access government facilities like that virus research lab? Yes? Then they're not hindering you. You need their help.

    • Even if China weren't doing anything particularly nefarious at their labs and COVID-19 genuinely had nothing to do with any research or work that they may have been doing there, they'd still never open up the records. As usual with any large bureaucracy and even more so in the case of ones with authoritarian leaders, the CCP leadership probably doesn't know the full extend of what was going on and some of the data may have been destroyed by underlings who didn't want to become a scapegoat when the higher up
    • Chinas reply.. "anchient Chinese secret!" with that settled better subpoena Calgon to appear before a senate oversight committee.
    • It's more likely than the USA doing the same, or even as much as the Chinese already have.

  • by ravenshrike ( 808508 ) on Friday May 14, 2021 @04:54PM (#61385426)

    Hilarious. Not because of what they want to do, but the idea that the CCP would ever release any significant documents on the matter, let alone unaltered ones.

  • China has been so upfront and open about this so far.

    I"m sure they'll be even more open this time.

    [/rolls eyes]

  • What do they hope to find out? What are they trying to prove? From TFA:

    Theories of accidental release from a lab and zoonotic spillover both remain viable. Knowing how COVID-19 emerged is critical for informing global strategies to mitigate the risk of future outbreaks.

    Or do they have an ulterior motive? Do they possibly think this was man-made? I've said it before. I don't think we're gonna find out for sure until another 50 years later when documents get unclassified.

    • I wouldn't put it past China to be researching bioweapons.
      The Chinese who make decisions have no sense of right or wrong, all they care about is making themselves look good so they get promotions
    • If it was man-made China did an absolutely shitty job of it. If they really wanted to release a deadly biological agent to do some damage there's plenty of better things they could have used. Of course to the CCP appearing incompetent is worse than malicious so they'd do just as much to lie about what might have been a simple accident. I wouldn't even be surprised if someone at the lab tried to cover things up themselves in order to avoid informing party leadership in order to avoid punishment and the CCP i
      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by VAElynx ( 2001046 )
        Man-made doesn't mean intentional
        It's entirely plausible it was an accidental release of some sort of research alpha-test culture, for instance, derived by trying to hybridize rhinoviruses and coronaviruses;.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Do they possibly think this was man-made?

      I don't believe anyone thinks that it was man-made. There's incredibly good proof [nature.com] that this was not man-made. Regular lab splicing is not exact, that's kind of the point why CRISPR-Cas9 is such a big deal, it makes splicing a bit more exact (but we're not at a point to use it as well as we think it can be used). So if this virus was man made, there would be copy errors in long runs of the sequence for things like the spike protein and what not. But a comparison of SARS-Cov-2's sequence compared to other

      • You're forgetting (or unaware) that there's gain of function techniques that don't involve splicing in a bunch of genes. Ignoring techniques like serial passage while holding out that paper as some kind of proof of no modification is highly suspect. That's not some highly advanced technique in the future, it's well understood and in common use. So I question whether you're deliberately misrepresenting exactly what that paper rules out, or are just not even a little familiar with gain of function research. I
        • Ignoring techniques like serial passage while holding out that paper as some kind of proof of no modification is highly suspect

          First off, I'm surprised that a Senator has a Slashdot account. Might I ask Senator Paul what you do with your time when you aren't regurgitating online theories? Additionally, I hold out the paper that 47 other papers published by a multitude of nations have cited as concurring with their research. That paper is considered the bedrock argument [nature.com] against the crap theory you're putting out there.

          That's not some highly advanced technique in the future, it's well understood and in common use.

          Aye it is. It's also inaccurate on short scales of time. So the point would be that this would need to be a vir

  • Open discussion (Score:4, Insightful)

    by systemd-anonymousd ( 6652324 ) on Friday May 14, 2021 @05:10PM (#61385482)

    Considering that any of the combinations of ideas regarding a lab leak (intentional or not) of COVID-19 (manufactured or natural) go against the currently accepted understanding of the virus, you won't be able to discuss this development on YouTube. They recently implemented policies disallowing any open discussion of COVID-19, and you're only allowed to discuss what the WHO, CDC, and other governments have defined as true.

    • by jd ( 1658 )

      Most of which is already established by independent labs as true. If you want to look for WMDs or children in the basement of a pizza parlour with only one floor, don't blame me if people accuse you of sexing up the dossier of conspiracy theories.

  • too late for that (Score:3, Interesting)

    by FudRucker ( 866063 ) on Friday May 14, 2021 @05:13PM (#61385496)
    if the covid19 was a lab enhanced virus that was released for whatever motive or reason, be it by accident or on purpose i am sure the chinese has already destroyed the evidence of that, so an investigation this late in the game is pointless, i think it was a virus found in nature, then enhanced by the chinese because trump was mucking wiht the economy and causing china some serious economic grief with tariffs and finding alternatives, and since china has such a large population to keep employed and feed the chinese was thinking "if were going down were going to take the rest of the world down with us"
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by jwhyche ( 6192 )

      i think it was a virus found in nature, then enhanced by the chinese because trump was mucking wiht the economy

      That really doesn't sound that absurd. That actually kind of jives with a pet theory that is rattling around in my brain. I think it was a weapons test.

      Not a full blown one but more of a proof of concept and one to send a message. Take a low fatality rate virus, tamper with it to make it a lot more contagious, then release it into the wild and watch what happens. From what I've observed the test was a blazing success and the message being "look what we could have done if we really wanted to kill yo

      • Some of which not exactly known for caring about their population.
        • by jwhyche ( 6192 ) on Friday May 14, 2021 @06:58PM (#61385802) Homepage

          Some of which not exactly known for caring about their population.

          So true, does make for a interesting thought experiment. But at bookwormT3 pointed out here.

          https://slashdot.org/comments.... [slashdot.org]

          The virus as a bio-weapon has fully been debunked. I'm actually willing to believe that because I think if it was proven to be a bio-weapon, even a proof of concept one, the response by the world would be a lot more explodie.

          • It was the extra-terrestrials. This was their dry run before they do the full invasion of earth will the real virus. It is probably already in our DNA, eating away at us, polluting our precious bodily fluids.

            And Biden is one of them. Made to look human. But the real Biden was teleported away decades ago. That is how he can still operate while being so old. He is not human. Stands to reason.

            They are circling the earth as we speak, in their undetectable invasion fleet, just ready for the right moment t

      • by trawg ( 308495 )

        Mass censorship of any dissenting options about the cause, source, and reaction to the virus

        What fucking planet are you living on where you haven't seen every single opinion from every single asshole on every single corner of the Internet with their pet theory about where this virus came from?

        • by jwhyche ( 6192 )

          Really? Become a doctor. Then create a video on how you disagree with current policy on the virus. Focus on the mask policies, lock downs, or vaccines. Get a few other doctors that agree with you to state there option on it.

          Then take said video post it to youtube, facebook, and twitter. Wait and see how long your video stays up. Make sure you pay attention how the media reacts to your video.

          • by trawg ( 308495 )

            Contrary to popular opinion, doctors are /not/ experts in any of these fields. At best they have a passing awareness of the latest knowledge if they keep up to date with the research. (Any doctor that reckons vaccines are not worth getting in general, outside of the edge cases, should, of course, not be a doctor).

            Medical misinformation has been a major problem for the pandemic, and before it, and a lot of it has been spread by doctors who are operating WELL OUTSIDE their field of expertise. e.g. a general p

            • by jwhyche ( 6192 )

              Become a doctor, make a video that doesn't agree with the status quo on covid, post it to twitter, youtube, or facebook. Once you have done that get back to us on the results.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by bookwormT3 ( 8067412 )

      "i think it was a virus found in nature, then enhanced by the chinese because trump was mucking wiht the economy"

      Almost certainly found in nature, but an intentional pandemic has already been debunked. Mid-2020, virology experts reported that COVID19 has some characteristics which, prior to nature proving science wrong, had been thought not to be effective in the human body. Or in other words, this virus would not have been chosen or been the goal of bioweapon research because it would have been thought ine

    • a virus found in nature, then enhanced by the chinese because trump was mucking wiht the economy and causing china some serious economic grief with tariffs and finding alternatives

      As someone else has pointed out, the virus was very bad at infecting humans before. Additionally, the spike protein compared to other similar knowns, like RaTG13 and SARS-Cov-1, shows a very clear linage in the Receptor Binding Domain (RBD) of the S protein. The ACE2 binding in function is similar to other Coronavirus. The biggest part of SARS-Cov-2 is the ability to trick the immune system and that is not the S-Protein that does that but more along the NSP2/3 within the ORF1ab gene. Editing these seque

  • by 140Mandak262Jamuna ( 970587 ) on Friday May 14, 2021 @05:58PM (#61385638) Journal
    China is totally government controlled. Bureaucrats are typically CYA risk averse types, who are usually rewarded for overt display of loyalty and giving their superiors plausible deniability. This is the petri dish and sugar solution for incompetence to take root and thrive.

    So it is very much possible, they were not trying develop any bio weapons. The incompetence and denial allowed the contagion to escape and infect the whole world.

    You can ask, "Why blame malice when mere incompetence can explain the events?"

    But, to adapt a phrase made famous by Arthur C Clarke [1], "Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice".

    It does not matter, whether it was incompetence or malice. Chinese definitely bungled it. And they are too big to be held responsible. USA too has been too big and too powerful to be held responsible for rest of the world. But, at least, some in USA held their own government responsible, and reign in the excesses. Somewhat ineffective, but still, at least there were some. Alas, it's all gone now.

    [1] Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic

    • by emil ( 695 )

      The quote is actually attributed to Napoleon, it seems incorrectly [militaryhistorynow.com]. The attached link implies that it largely emerged in the writings of Jane West in 1812 ("Let us not attribute to malice and cruelty what may be referred to less criminal motives").

  • China, with a far larger population, and without any advance warning reports only 4,636 deaths from Covid-19 and the US reports more than 584,000 deaths and had advance warning.

    The WHO behaves as though its an extension of the Chinese government.

    The Chinese military had an office in the lab in Wuhan where gain of function experiments were conducted.

    Is it any wonder people are suspicious?

    In any case, we need to leave this one alone. I don't want WW3 to start. If it becomes proven the Chinese governme
    • So you'd rather wait until the chinese weapons labs have the 1.00 version of this shit going than the 0.05beta?
    • by jd ( 1658 )

      People were suspicious of Iraq. And were wrong.
      People were suspicious of a pizza parlour. And were wrong.
      People being suspicious doesn't mean a damn thing. Reality isn't democratic, things don't become true because you believe them.

      WHO was defanged by the US Government, with the approval of US voters. But WHO are largely irrelevant, since it's the independent labs that did 99% of the validation.

      Dr Kelly was up to his eyeballs in espionage, but that didn't make him a liar. It made him a target of blind hatre

  • by Beryllium Sphere(tm) ( 193358 ) on Friday May 14, 2021 @07:09PM (#61385818) Journal

    One of the mental disciplines he prescribed is to generate multiple hypotheses. Implicit is that you don't reject one until the evidence is against it.

    SARS COV2 is quite good at binding to human ACE2 receptors.

    Hypothesis: it evolved to adapt to humans during an undetected period of circulation when it was misdiagnosed or doing its asymptomatic thing.

    Hypothesis: a lab did routine gain of function testing and became just the latest of many labs all over the world to have an accident.

    Hypothesis: it evolved naturally in animals that have ACE2 receptors similar to those in humans.

    I have yet to see evidence that could rule out any of those. I will listen with respect to anyone who presents relevant facts.

  • Too many people accrue too much power and influence by not discovering this shit.

  • China would if the USA would, but of course, the USA won't. China already let the WHO investigate, but that supposedly isn't good enough.

  • Of course, people here will think they want more from China, but it's really from the USA that information is lacking...and they're refusing pretty much any kind of investigation.

  • by gweihir ( 88907 ) on Saturday May 15, 2021 @08:12AM (#61386954)

    We _know_ that. Engineering a virus like this leaves clear, easy to identify markers. COVID-19 does not have any of these markers. Unless Chinese labs are decades ahead of everybody else and can do things nobody else can, they did not make this.

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